Replies: 9 Comments
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Posted by:
Nathan Smith
On Thursday, April 7th
I think it's true that the "jobs Americans won't take" line is bogus. Some American would take just about any job for enough money. It's true that workers competing with immigrants get lower wages. That's why I think that instead of restricting immigration, we should tax it, and pay the revenues out as dividends to the American-born, to help them weather the transition.
Unemployment is at 5.2%. That's historically pretty low. Of course, life is always going to be a struggle for someone. But this is evidence against the claim that immigrants are taking American jobs. Or rather, it shows that when immigrants take American jobs, the economy can easily generate new jobs. We're not going to run out of jobs as long as we have a flexible labor market.
Cheap labor benefits anyone who buys services. If you go to a restaurant or a car wash, you pay a bit less if the wages of the guy working there are lower. We benefit in other ways too. If you buy a house for $50,000 and sell it five years later for $80,000 because immigrant homebuyers are buoying up the market, you benefit.
Posted by:
Selinda Arguso
On Thursday, April 7th
One more time:
"But most people are kept out of the US only because they are suspected of 'taking American jobs." That's what you said.
What the hell are you talking about? Do you happen to have the resumes of these people illegally crossing the border or something? Are you asserting that you KNOW somehow that they have skills that are valuable to us? Or your idea of charity is giving a fruit picker $100 a week instead of $20?
By the way, $20 lasts longer in most third-world countries than it does here. And most of the "jobs" you think should be available to illegals are often already available in their home country, thanks to NAFTA and multinational corporations. People in America, particularly in the manufacturing sector, are most certainly fighting for the jobs they already have.
And American unions are in trouble, too.
The jobs I imagine you think the illegal "hard-working" immigrants are qualified for are being sought after by Americans. Why do you think cheap labor will improve anyone's life but the people at the very top?
By the way, the U.S. recruits thousands of talented scientists, writers, researchers, engineers, etc. from other countries. We invite those people because they provide value to our system, our industry.
Posted by:
Nathan Smith
On Thursday, April 7th
scooter:
Re: "Ethnic cleansing."
To me, driving people who live in the US out of the US, on a mass scale, amounts to ethnic cleansing. If it were happening in Africa, that's what I'd call it.
But maybe this post is just about enforcing the borders, which I guess is different. Sorry, my bad. It's just that the vision of unmanned aircraft patrolling US skies gives me the creeps. I don't want to find out where that road would take us.
And shutting out terrorists and shutting out workers must be rigorously distinguished. Where there's even the faintest pretext that a person is being excluded from the country as a suspected terrorist, I'm willing to give the case a second hearing. But most people are kept out of the US only because they are suspected of "taking American jobs."
Posted by:
Selinda Arguso
On Thursday, April 7th
Nathan:
I understand your perspective as a matter of the heart issue. For example, if I was unfortunate enough to be born in a country where violence and corruption were dominant and economic mobility an impossibility, I, too, might look for ways to improve my situation. I think it is a fair argument that global citizens, as a matter of humanity, should have that benefit. Do I want my tax dollars, my American tax dollars to fund that initiative? Absolutely not. Do I think it's America's job to police the world? No. Do I think we have enough citizens in the United States that have problems we must deal with? Yes.
When I said welfare-sucking, I did mean the children of illegal immigrants. And if you've lived in the communities of Echo Park or Silverlake in Los Angeles, you would see that the clinics are always full of pregnant women. I'm not just saying this for any other reason than that I lived it. I saw the manipulation of the system.
I don't see Europe or Canada opening its borders to Mexicans, for example. Do you?
Do you think foreigners should be able to run for President, too?
So we give illegals the right to vote in addition to drive? Give them Social Security Numbers?
Oh yes, Nathan, THAT would make Mr. Bin Laden a very happy man. I can see the planes of happy immigrants landing right NOW.
Posted by:
Nathan Smith
On Thursday, April 7th
Re: "Tolerating the notion of unlicensed, unaccounted for, nontaxpaying, public education and welfare sucking illegal immigrants as a matter of preventing us from some backlash of the left is the poorest argument I've heard for open borders yet."
Unlicensed? Well, license them.
Unaccounted for? Again, let them get registered. Give them Social Security numbers.
Nontaxpaying? Again, give them documentation and they'll start paying taxes.
Public-education- and welfare-sucking? Well, immigrants are generally disqualified from getting welfare. That's just a myth. I admit it's a bit tricky how to deal with the children of illegal immigrants.
The upside of immigration is huge. Better hospitality would do more than anything else to improve America's image in the world, as well as honor our own traditions and principles, but that's not the only benefit. It helps to control inflation in services. Immigrants' tax dollars buoy up the Social Security system. Many new homebuyers are immigrants, so immigrants help keep housing prices up. All homeowners benefit from that. I could go on and on...
I'm all for stopping crime among illegal immigrants. But illegal immigrants who are not knife-wielding and drug-dealing (and your anecdotal evidence hardly dissuades me from my belief that most illegals just want to work for a living) should not be punished for the sins of those who are.
Posted by:
scooter
On Thursday, April 7th
Nathan, who exactly are you referring to as "racist" or fanatic? or fantastist?(!)
And "ethnic cleansing"? Hyperbole is one thing; this is a lie.
Posted by:
temp@yahoo.com">Selinda Arguso
On Thursday, April 7th
In response to Nathan:
"Against peaceful workers" is the problem with your argument. If you've ever lived in a community of illegal immigrants, as I did for 8 years in LA, you would understand that there are many more knife-wielding, drug-dealing, job-stealing gangsters among them, than righteous upstanding people. The social services are sucked dry. The State of Ca., in this example, can't afford to educate them, they are NOT contributing to the resources they, as a group, are sucking, whereby dragging the left, right, and center down with them. You see, this isn't a matter of liberalism, it's a matter of whether you BELIEVE that our American version of capitalism works or not. Do you? America doesn't currently have an open-border policy, nor should they, in my opinion. I applaud the Minutemen for doing a better job at patrolling the borders than the government. As for you, sir, calling the notion of military border patrol a racist fantasy is a gross mistake.
Most people just want a better life. Tolerating the notion of unlicensed, unaccounted for, nontaxpaying, public education and welfare sucking illegal immigrants as a matter of preventing us from some backlash of the left is the poorest argument I've heard for open borders yet.
Got any others?
Posted by:
Nathan Smith
On Thursday, April 7th
Are you seriously suggesting that we deploy the latest military technology on our own border, not against terrorists but against peaceful workers?
Do you have any idea how the left would crucify us for this all over the world? Do you have any idea how right they would be to do so? Do you have any idea what a propaganda victory we'd be handing to bin Laden?
I support the military fighting terrorists and tyrants, not carrying out ethnic cleansing operations for the benefit of racist fantasists back home, thank you very much.